I am just playing with ChatGPT and ask it some questions, ChatGPT
is just a computer program That is a very powerful AI but still gets things wrong
and will insert its programmers bias into its answer. So, take anything that
ChatGPT says with a grain of salt and double check everything it says.
Me:
When did the Jewish people quit celebrating the traditional Passover Meal that
Moses told them to do?
ChatGPT said:
The Jewish people have never stopped celebrating the traditional Passover
meal, known as the Seder, which is based on the instructions given in
the Torah (Exodus 12). However, the way it is observed has evolved over time.
Changes Over Time
- Biblical
Times (Temple Period)
- Passover
was centered around the Korban Pesach (Passover sacrifice), where
a lamb was sacrificed at the Temple in Jerusalem and then eaten with
unleavened bread (matzah) and bitter herbs.
- This
was a direct continuation of what Moses commanded in Egypt.
- Post-Temple
Era (After 70 CE)
- When
the Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE, the sacrificial
system ended.
- Since
then, Jewish people no longer offer the Passover lamb but still hold the Seder
meal, which includes symbolic foods (matzah, bitter herbs, charoset,
etc.).
- The
Haggadah, a structured text guiding the Seder, became a central part of
the celebration.
Present Day
- Jewish
communities worldwide still observe Passover with a Seder, reading the
story of the Exodus, eating matzah, and following traditions based on
Moses' commandments, adapted for a world without a Temple.
Would you like more details on how the Seder meal has
evolved in different Jewish traditions?
Me:
How can the traditional Passover meal be known as the Seder? It is not what Moses commanded them to do.
ChatGPT said:
You're absolutely right to question that! The traditional Passover meal
as observed today—commonly known as the Seder—is not identical to what
Moses originally commanded in Exodus 12. Instead, it has evolved over time,
especially after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE.
What Moses Commanded (Exodus 12)
Moses' instructions for the Passover meal were specific and
simple:
- Sacrifice
a lamb without blemish.
- Roast
it whole and eat it with unleavened bread (matzah) and bitter herbs.
- Eat
in haste, with sandals on and staff in hand, as a remembrance of their
sudden departure from Egypt.
- No
leftovers until morning—anything remaining had to be burned.
This practice continued throughout biblical times,
particularly when the Temple in Jerusalem stood, because the Passover sacrifice
had to be offered there.
How Did It Become the Seder?
The word Seder means "order," referring to
the structured ritual meal that developed later. Here's what happened:
- 70
CE – The Destruction of the Second Temple:
- Without
a Temple, the Jews could no longer offer the Korban Pesach
(Passover sacrifice).
- Instead,
rabbis developed a ritual meal to commemorate the Exodus without the
sacrificial lamb.
- Rabbinic
Period (2nd–5th centuries CE):
- The
meal became highly structured, with 15 ordered steps based on
discussions in the Mishnah (Pesachim 10).
- Instead
of a sacrifice, the meal focused on retelling the Exodus story using the Haggadah.
- Symbolic
foods were introduced:
- Matzah
(unleavened bread)
- Maror
(bitter herbs)
- Charoset
(sweet mixture representing mortar)
- A
shank bone (to represent the lost sacrifice)
Key Difference:
- The original
Passover meal commanded by Moses was a sacrificial meal centered on
the lamb.
- The Seder
is a memorial meal focused on storytelling, developed after the
Temple was destroyed.
Even though it is different from what Moses instituted, the
Seder still aims to fulfill the Torah’s command to teach future generations
about the Exodus (Exodus 13:8).
Would you like a breakdown of how modern Jews conduct the
Seder today compared to the original Passover meal?
Me:
Yes
ChatGPT said:
Great! Let’s compare the original Passover meal (as commanded by
Moses) with the modern Seder step by step.
1. The Original Passover Meal (Biblical Command)
Based on Exodus 12
- Main
Elements:
- Passover
Lamb (Korban Pesach) – A young, unblemished lamb was sacrificed
and roasted whole.
- Matzah
(Unleavened Bread) – Eaten to remember their hasty departure from
Egypt.
- Maror
(Bitter Herbs) – Representing the bitterness of slavery in Egypt.
- How
It Was Eaten:
- In haste,
with sandals on and staff in hand, ready to leave Egypt.
- No
leftovers – Anything remaining had to be burned before morning.
- One
Night Only – No extended holiday, just one night of observance.
- Initially
in Egypt (first Passover).
- Later,
it was required to be celebrated in Jerusalem when the Temple
stood.
2. The Modern Seder Meal (Rabbinic Tradition)
Developed after 70 CE (Post-Temple Period)
- No
Sacrificial Lamb
- Since
the Temple was destroyed, the sacrificial system ended.
- Instead,
some Jews place a shank bone on the table to symbolize the
lost sacrifice.
- New
Ritual Elements Introduced:
1.
Seder Plate (symbolic foods replace the
original sacrifice).
2.
Haggadah Reading – A structured retelling
of the Exodus story.
3.
Four Cups of Wine – Representing God's
four promises in Exodus 6:6-7.
4.
Charoset – A sweet mixture symbolizing
the mortar used by slaves in Egypt.
5.
Reclining While Eating – Symbolizing
freedom (opposite of eating in haste).
- How
It Is Eaten:
- Not
in haste – Instead, there is a long and structured meal.
- Questions
& Answers – Children ask the Four Questions to fulfill the
command to teach future generations.
- Songs
& Prayers – Various hymns and songs have been added.
- Where
It Takes Place:
- Anywhere
(homes, community centers, synagogues) – No requirement to be in
Jerusalem.
Key Differences:
|
Aspect
|
Original Passover (Moses’ Time)
|
Modern Seder
|
|
Main Focus
|
Sacrificial lamb & haste
|
Storytelling & symbolism
|
|
Lamb?
|
Yes, roasted whole
|
No lamb, symbolic shank bone
|
|
Temple Sacrifice?
|
Yes, required
|
No, because the Temple was destroyed
|
|
Location
|
Only in Jerusalem (later)
|
Anywhere in the world
|
|
Eating Style
|
Standing, in haste
|
Reclining, leisurely
|
|
Matzah & Bitter Herbs?
|
Yes, required
|
Yes, but part of an expanded ritual
|
|
Storytelling?
|
No formal text, just a reminder of the Exodus
|
The Haggadah guides a long discussion
|
|
Length of Observance
|
One-night event
|
Multi-course meal lasting hours
|
Summary
- The original
Passover meal was simple and focused on obedience—sacrificing a
lamb, eating it quickly, and remembering the Exodus.
- The modern
Seder is a long, structured meal filled with symbolism,
designed to teach and remember in a world without the Temple.
Even though today’s Seder is not the same as what
Moses commanded, it still aims to fulfill the commandment of remembering the
Exodus.
Would you like more details on any part of the Seder or its
origins?
Me:
When did the roasted egg get added?
ChatGPT said:
The roasted egg (Beitzah) was added to the Passover Seder sometime
after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, during the development
of the rabbinic Seder tradition. It is not mentioned in the Torah or in
the original Passover instructions from Moses.
Why Was the Roasted Egg Added?
The roasted egg serves multiple symbolic purposes in
the Seder:
- Mourning
the Loss of the Temple
- The
egg symbolizes mourning for the destruction of the Temple in
Jerusalem, where the Passover lamb was once sacrificed.
- Just
as eggs are a traditional Jewish food for mourners, the presence of the
egg at the Seder reminds Jews that they can no longer offer sacrifices as
commanded in the Torah.
- A
Symbol of the Chagigah Offering
- During
Temple times, a special festival offering called the Chagigah
was brought on Passover (along with the Korban Pesach, the Passover
sacrifice).
- Since
the Chagigah sacrifice is no longer possible, the roasted egg was added
to the Seder plate as a symbolic replacement.
- Symbol
of Renewal & Life
- The
egg also represents new beginnings and the cycle of life,
much like how Passover represents the birth of the Israelite nation.
When Was It First Mentioned?
- The
roasted egg is first discussed in Talmudic sources (Pesachim 114b),
which suggests it had become a part of the Seder by the time the Talmud
was compiled (c. 200-500 CE).
- Over
time, it became a standard feature of the Seder plate in Jewish
communities.
Is It Eaten?
- Unlike
the other foods on the Seder plate (like matzah and maror), the egg is not
required to be eaten as part of the ritual.
- Some
people eat it as part of the meal, often dipped in salt water (which
symbolizes tears and mourning).
Summary
- The
roasted egg was not part of the original Passover meal commanded by
Moses.
- It
was introduced after the Temple’s destruction (post-70 CE) as a symbol
of mourning and sacrifice.
- It
became a universal part of the Seder plate by the time of the
Talmud (c. 200-500 CE).
Would you like more details on the development of the Seder
plate?
Me:
The traditional Passover meal Could be lamb or goat you left out the goat.
ChatGPT said:
You're absolutely right! The original Passover sacrifice (Korban
Pesach), as commanded by Moses in Exodus 12:5, could be either a lamb
or a goat:
"Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the
first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats."
(Exodus 12:5, KJV)
Lamb or Goat – Why the Choice?
- Both
were acceptable offerings because they were commonly available to the
Israelites.
- Some
scholars suggest that lambs were preferred in later tradition, but goats
were equally valid.
- The
key requirement was that the animal be male, one year old, and without
blemish.
Why Was This Detail Lost in the Modern Seder?
- End
of the Temple Sacrifice (70 CE)
- Once
the Temple was destroyed, the practice of sacrificing a lamb or
goat ended.
- Instead
of offering an animal, the Seder developed as a symbolic meal,
replacing the sacrifice with ritual foods.
- Shift
Toward Lamb Symbolism
- The
lamb became more emphasized because of its connection to other
biblical themes, such as the Paschal Lamb and later Christian
interpretations.
- The
shank bone (zeroa) on the modern Seder plate represents the lost
sacrifice, but it is usually a lamb bone rather than a goat
bone—though a goat bone would also be valid.
Did Some Communities Still Use Goat?
- Yes!
Some Jewish communities, particularly in the Middle East and North
Africa, historically used goat meat for their Passover meal as
a remembrance of the original sacrifice.
Summary
- The
original Passover sacrifice could be either a lamb or a goat
(Exodus 12:5).
- Over
time, lamb became more symbolically dominant, though both were
equally valid.
- The
modern Seder no longer includes a real sacrifice, but a shank
bone (often from a lamb) is placed on the Seder plate as a
remembrance.
Thanks for catching that! Would you like more details on how
different Jewish communities have kept older Passover traditions?
Me:
Wasn't the shank bone A chicken bone
ChatGPT said:
Good question! The shank bone (Zeroa) on the modern Seder plate
is traditionally from a lamb, but in some communities, a chicken bone
has been used as a substitute. Let’s break it down.
Original Meaning of the Shank Bone (Zeroa)
The shank bone represents the Korban Pesach
(Passover sacrifice), which was a lamb or goat roasted and eaten
during the original Passover meal (Exodus 12:5-8).
- Since
the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Jews could no longer
offer the sacrifice.
- To
remember it, rabbinic tradition added the shank bone to the Seder
plate as a symbol, not an actual offering.
Lamb vs. Chicken Bone – Why the Confusion?
- Lamb
Shank Bone (Most Common)
- Many
Jewish communities use a lamb shank bone (from a leg of lamb) to symbolize
the lost sacrifice.
- This
is the most direct connection to the original Passover meal, which
required a lamb or goat.
- Chicken
Bone (A Common Alternative)
- Some
Jewish communities, especially Ashkenazi Jews (Eastern European
tradition), use a roasted chicken bone instead of lamb.
- Why?
- Practicality
– Lamb isn’t always available or commonly eaten in these communities.
- Avoiding
Sacrificial Symbolism – Since Jews today cannot offer the Korban
Pesach, some rabbis discouraged using a lamb bone to avoid
confusion.
- A chicken
neck bone or wing is often roasted and used instead.
Which One is Correct?
- Both
are acceptable, depending on tradition:
- Lamb
shank bone is more historically accurate.
- Chicken
bone is a practical substitution, especially in Ashkenazi
communities.
- Some
people even use a vegetarian substitute, like a beet, to
symbolize the sacrifice in modern times.
Summary
- Original
Passover Meal (Moses’ Time): A lamb or goat was sacrificed and
eaten.
- Post-Temple
Seder (After 70 CE): A shank bone was added as a symbol of
the lost sacrifice.
- Lamb
vs. Chicken Bone:
- Lamb
shank bone = Historically accurate, still widely used.
- Chicken
bone = A practical Ashkenazi substitute, used in many homes.
- Vegetarian
option (beet) = Some modern traditions adopt this.
So, while a chicken bone is sometimes used, it was
never the original intent—it’s just a later adaptation. Would you like to know
more about other Seder plate variations across Jewish traditions?
Me:
is not the chicken bone the most commonly used today
ChatGPT said:
No, the lamb shank bone (Zeroa) is still the most commonly used
symbol on the Seder plate, especially in Sephardic, Mizrahi, and many
Ashkenazi communities. However, chicken bones (such as a roasted
neck or wing) are used as a substitute in some households, particularly
among Ashkenazi Jews who may avoid lamb for various reasons.
Why Do Some Use a Chicken Bone?
- Availability
& Practicality – Lamb shank bones are not always easy to find,
while chicken bones are more common.
- Avoiding
Confusion with the Passover Sacrifice – Some Ashkenazi traditions
discourage using a lamb bone because Jews today cannot offer the actual
Passover sacrifice without the Temple.
- Cost
& Convenience – A chicken bone is easier to obtain and prepare,
especially in places where lamb is not widely eaten.
What’s Most Common?
- Lamb
shank bone → Still the most widely used, as it directly represents the
Passover sacrifice.
- Chicken
bone (neck/wing) → A practical alternative, especially in some
Ashkenazi traditions.
- Vegetarian
substitute (beet) → Used by some vegetarians and certain progressive
Jewish groups.
So while chicken bones are used, the lamb shank
bone remains the most traditional and commonly used option worldwide. Would
you like more details on different Passover customs across Jewish communities?
Me:
It doesn't make any sense that they could use a shank bone from a goat or
lamb but not the meat of the lamb or goat they had to kill and butcher you go
to lamb whichever they did
ChatGPT said:
You're absolutely right to question that! It does seem inconsistent
that many Jewish communities avoid eating roast lamb on Passover but
still use a lamb shank bone as a symbol. This practice comes from rabbinic
rulings meant to prevent confusion between modern Seder meals and the actual
Passover sacrifice (Korban Pesach) that was required when the Temple stood.
Why Do Many Jews Avoid Eating Roast Lamb on Passover?
- No
Temple = No Sacrifice
- Since
the Temple was destroyed (70 CE), Jews can no longer bring the Korban
Pesach (Passover sacrifice).
- To
prevent people from thinking they are trying to replicate the
sacrifice improperly, rabbis in some communities forbade eating
roast lamb at the Seder.
- Rabbinic
Rulings (Talmud & Later Teachings)
- The
Talmud (Pesachim 53a) records that in some Jewish communities,
people refrained from eating roasted lamb at the Seder so it wouldn't
appear as if they were offering an unauthorized sacrifice outside
the Temple.
- Later,
medieval rabbinic authorities (like Maimonides and the Shulchan Aruch)
reinforced this practice, especially for Ashkenazi Jews.
- Sephardic
vs. Ashkenazi Customs
- Sephardic
Jews (Middle Eastern, Spanish, North African traditions): Many do eat
lamb or goat at the Seder, but often stewed or boiled, not
roasted.
- Ashkenazi
Jews (Eastern European traditions): Many have a custom of completely
avoiding lamb to avoid any confusion with the ancient sacrifice.
Why Use a Lamb Shank Bone if You Can’t Eat Lamb?
- The shank
bone (Zeroa) is only symbolic, not an actual meal component.
- It
serves as a reminder of the lost sacrifice, without violating the
rabbinic restriction on eating roasted lamb.
- Some
communities roast the bone but do not eat it—they just place it on
the Seder plate.
What About Goat?
- Goat
was also an acceptable Passover sacrifice (Exodus 12:5).
- However,
the same rabbinic concerns applied to roasting a whole goat.
- Today,
most Jewish communities do not emphasize goat as part of Passover
meals, even though it was a valid option in Temple times.
Summary
- Biblical
Command (Exodus 12): Eat roasted lamb or goat.
- Post-Temple
Practice (After 70 CE): No sacrifice allowed, so rabbis discouraged
eating roast lamb to avoid confusion.
- Modern
Seder Traditions:
- Shank
bone remains as a symbol, but many Ashkenazi Jews avoid eating lamb
or goat.
- Sephardic
Jews may eat lamb, but often stewed or boiled instead of roasted.
So, the restriction is based on rabbinic interpretation
rather than biblical law. Some Jews still eat lamb, but many avoid it due to
centuries-old customs.
Would you like more information on how different Jewish
communities handle Passover traditions?
===================
================= ============
Exodus 12:14 (ESV)
“This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to
the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it
as a feast.
Now as a born-again Christian we no longer must keep the
Passover feast. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. When we accept
Christ as our savior and pick up our cross and follow him His blood is washed
over us like the lamb's or Goat’s blood was put on the Mantel and the door post
of the house.
We do celebrate the Passover at my house on or around Easter
with either lamb or goat. We do stay close to what Moses commanded, not that we
think we must. We do it just because we want to.
You can read more about the Passover meal in Exodus 12.
Side note: I believe the egg was added because of Pagan
influences especially around that time of year. I have no proof of this, but it
does seem logical.
