A conversation with ChatGPT about the traditional Passover Meal vs. Seder plate

I am just playing with ChatGPT and ask it some questions, ChatGPT is just a computer program That is a very powerful AI but still gets things wrong and will insert its programmers bias into its answer. So, take anything that ChatGPT says with a grain of salt and double check everything it says.

Me:
When did the Jewish people quit celebrating the traditional Passover Meal that Moses told them to do?

ChatGPT said:
The Jewish people have never stopped celebrating the traditional Passover meal, known as the Seder, which is based on the instructions given in the Torah (Exodus 12). However, the way it is observed has evolved over time. 

Changes Over Time

1. Biblical Times (Temple Period)
• Passover was centered around the Korban Pesach (Passover sacrifice), where a lamb was sacrificed at the Temple in Jerusalem and then eaten with unleavened bread (matzah) and bitter herbs.
• This was a direct continuation of what Moses commanded in Egypt.
2. Post-Temple Era (After 70 CE)
• When the Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE, the sacrificial system ended.
• Since then, Jewish people no longer offer the Passover lamb but still hold the Seder meal, which includes symbolic foods (matzah, bitter herbs, charoset, etc.).
• The Haggadah, a structured text guiding the Seder, became a central part of the celebration.

Present Day

• Jewish communities worldwide still observe Passover with a Seder, reading the story of the Exodus, eating matzah, and following traditions based on Moses' commandments, adapted for a world without a Temple.

Would you like more details on how the Seder meal has evolved in different Jewish traditions?

Me:
How can the traditional Passover meal be known as the Seder? It is not what Moses commanded them to do.

ChatGPT said:
You're absolutely right to question that! The traditional Passover meal as observed today—commonly known as the Seder—is not identical to what Moses originally commanded in Exodus 12. Instead, it has evolved over time, especially after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE.

What Moses Commanded (Exodus 12)

Moses' instructions for the Passover meal were specific and simple:

1. Sacrifice a lamb without blemish.
2. Roast it whole and eat it with unleavened bread (matzah) and bitter herbs.
3. Eat in haste, with sandals on and staff in hand, as a remembrance of their sudden departure from Egypt.
4. No leftovers until morning—anything remaining had to be burned.

This practice continued throughout biblical times, particularly when the Temple in Jerusalem stood, because the Passover sacrifice had to be offered there.

How Did It Become the Seder?

The word Seder means "order," referring to the structured ritual meal that developed later. Here's what happened:

• 70 CE – The Destruction of the Second Temple:
• Without a Temple, the Jews could no longer offer the Korban Pesach (Passover sacrifice).
• Instead, rabbis developed a ritual meal to commemorate the Exodus without the sacrificial lamb.
• Rabbinic Period (2nd–5th centuries CE):
• The meal became highly structured, with 15 ordered steps based on discussions in the Mishnah (Pesachim 10).
• Instead of a sacrifice, the meal focused on retelling the Exodus story using the Haggadah.
• Symbolic foods were introduced:
• Matzah (unleavened bread)
• Maror (bitter herbs)
• Charoset (sweet mixture representing mortar)
• A shank bone (to represent the lost sacrifice)

Key Difference:

• The original Passover meal commanded by Moses was a sacrificial meal centered on the lamb.
• The Seder is a memorial meal focused on storytelling, developed after the Temple was destroyed.

Even though it is different from what Moses instituted, the Seder still aims to fulfill the Torah’s command to teach future generations about the Exodus (Exodus 13:8).

Would you like a breakdown of how modern Jews conduct the Seder today compared to the original Passover meal?

Me:
Yes

ChatGPT said:
Great! Let’s compare the original Passover meal (as commanded by Moses) with the modern Seder step by step.

---

1. The Original Passover Meal (Biblical Command)

Based on Exodus 12

• Main Elements:
1. Passover Lamb (Korban Pesach) – A young, unblemished lamb was sacrificed and roasted whole.
2. Matzah (Unleavened Bread) – Eaten to remember their hasty departure from Egypt.
3. Maror (Bitter Herbs) – Representing the bitterness of slavery in Egypt.
• How It Was Eaten:

• In haste, with sandals on and staff in hand, ready to leave Egypt.
• No leftovers – Anything remaining had to be burned before morning.
• One Night Only – No extended holiday, just one night of observance.

• Where It Took Place:

• Initially in Egypt (first Passover).
• Later, it was required to be celebrated in Jerusalem when the Temple stood.

---

2. The Modern Seder Meal (Rabbinic Tradition)

Developed after 70 CE (Post-Temple Period)

• No Sacrificial Lamb
• Since the Temple was destroyed, the sacrificial system ended.
• Instead, some Jews place a shank bone on the table to symbolize the lost sacrifice.
• New Ritual Elements Introduced:

1.               Seder Plate (symbolic foods replace the original sacrifice).

2.               Haggadah Reading – A structured retelling of the Exodus story.

3.               Four Cups of Wine – Representing God's four promises in Exodus 6:6-7.

4.               Charoset – A sweet mixture symbolizing the mortar used by slaves in Egypt.

5.               Reclining While Eating – Symbolizing freedom (opposite of eating in haste).

• How It Is Eaten:
• Not in haste – Instead, there is a long and structured meal.
• Questions & Answers – Children ask the Four Questions to fulfill the command to teach future generations.
• Songs & Prayers – Various hymns and songs have been added.
• Where It Takes Place:
• Anywhere (homes, community centers, synagogues) – No requirement to be in Jerusalem.

---

Key Differences:

Aspect	Original Passover (Moses’ Time)	Modern Seder
Main Focus	Sacrificial lamb & haste	Storytelling & symbolism
Lamb?	Yes, roasted whole	No lamb, symbolic shank bone
Temple Sacrifice?	Yes, required	No, because the Temple was destroyed
Location	Only in Jerusalem (later)	Anywhere in the world
Eating Style	Standing, in haste	Reclining, leisurely
Matzah & Bitter Herbs?	Yes, required	Yes, but part of an expanded ritual
Storytelling?	No formal text, just a reminder of the Exodus	The Haggadah guides a long discussion
Length of Observance	One-night event	Multi-course meal lasting hours

---

Summary

• The original Passover meal was simple and focused on obedience—sacrificing a lamb, eating it quickly, and remembering the Exodus.
• The modern Seder is a long, structured meal filled with symbolism, designed to teach and remember in a world without the Temple.

Even though today’s Seder is not the same as what Moses commanded, it still aims to fulfill the commandment of remembering the Exodus.

Would you like more details on any part of the Seder or its origins?

Me:
When did the roasted egg get added?

ChatGPT said:
The roasted egg (Beitzah) was added to the Passover Seder sometime after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, during the development of the rabbinic Seder tradition. It is not mentioned in the Torah or in the original Passover instructions from Moses.

Why Was the Roasted Egg Added?

The roasted egg serves multiple symbolic purposes in the Seder:

1. Mourning the Loss of the Temple
• The egg symbolizes mourning for the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, where the Passover lamb was once sacrificed.
• Just as eggs are a traditional Jewish food for mourners, the presence of the egg at the Seder reminds Jews that they can no longer offer sacrifices as commanded in the Torah.
2. A Symbol of the Chagigah Offering
• During Temple times, a special festival offering called the Chagigah was brought on Passover (along with the Korban Pesach, the Passover sacrifice).
• Since the Chagigah sacrifice is no longer possible, the roasted egg was added to the Seder plate as a symbolic replacement.
3. Symbol of Renewal & Life
• The egg also represents new beginnings and the cycle of life, much like how Passover represents the birth of the Israelite nation.

When Was It First Mentioned?

• The roasted egg is first discussed in Talmudic sources (Pesachim 114b), which suggests it had become a part of the Seder by the time the Talmud was compiled (c. 200-500 CE).
• Over time, it became a standard feature of the Seder plate in Jewish communities.

Is It Eaten?

• Unlike the other foods on the Seder plate (like matzah and maror), the egg is not required to be eaten as part of the ritual.
• Some people eat it as part of the meal, often dipped in salt water (which symbolizes tears and mourning).

---

Summary

• The roasted egg was not part of the original Passover meal commanded by Moses.
• It was introduced after the Temple’s destruction (post-70 CE) as a symbol of mourning and sacrifice.
• It became a universal part of the Seder plate by the time of the Talmud (c. 200-500 CE).

Would you like more details on the development of the Seder plate?

Me:
The traditional Passover meal Could be lamb or goat you left out the goat.

ChatGPT said:
You're absolutely right! The original Passover sacrifice (Korban Pesach), as commanded by Moses in Exodus 12:5, could be either a lamb or a goat:

"Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats." (Exodus 12:5, KJV)

Lamb or Goat – Why the Choice?

• Both were acceptable offerings because they were commonly available to the Israelites.
• Some scholars suggest that lambs were preferred in later tradition, but goats were equally valid.
• The key requirement was that the animal be male, one year old, and without blemish.

Why Was This Detail Lost in the Modern Seder?

1. End of the Temple Sacrifice (70 CE)
• Once the Temple was destroyed, the practice of sacrificing a lamb or goat ended.
• Instead of offering an animal, the Seder developed as a symbolic meal, replacing the sacrifice with ritual foods.
2. Shift Toward Lamb Symbolism
• The lamb became more emphasized because of its connection to other biblical themes, such as the Paschal Lamb and later Christian interpretations.
• The shank bone (zeroa) on the modern Seder plate represents the lost sacrifice, but it is usually a lamb bone rather than a goat bone—though a goat bone would also be valid.

Did Some Communities Still Use Goat?

• Yes! Some Jewish communities, particularly in the Middle East and North Africa, historically used goat meat for their Passover meal as a remembrance of the original sacrifice.

Summary

• The original Passover sacrifice could be either a lamb or a goat (Exodus 12:5).
• Over time, lamb became more symbolically dominant, though both were equally valid.
• The modern Seder no longer includes a real sacrifice, but a shank bone (often from a lamb) is placed on the Seder plate as a remembrance.

Thanks for catching that! Would you like more details on how different Jewish communities have kept older Passover traditions?

Me:
Wasn't the shank bone A chicken bone

ChatGPT said:
Good question! The shank bone (Zeroa) on the modern Seder plate is traditionally from a lamb, but in some communities, a chicken bone has been used as a substitute. Let’s break it down.

---

Original Meaning of the Shank Bone (Zeroa)

The shank bone represents the Korban Pesach (Passover sacrifice), which was a lamb or goat roasted and eaten during the original Passover meal (Exodus 12:5-8).

• Since the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Jews could no longer offer the sacrifice.
• To remember it, rabbinic tradition added the shank bone to the Seder plate as a symbol, not an actual offering.

---

Lamb vs. Chicken Bone – Why the Confusion?

1. Lamb Shank Bone (Most Common)
• Many Jewish communities use a lamb shank bone (from a leg of lamb) to symbolize the lost sacrifice.
• This is the most direct connection to the original Passover meal, which required a lamb or goat.
2. Chicken Bone (A Common Alternative)
• Some Jewish communities, especially Ashkenazi Jews (Eastern European tradition), use a roasted chicken bone instead of lamb.
• Why?
• Practicality – Lamb isn’t always available or commonly eaten in these communities.
• Avoiding Sacrificial Symbolism – Since Jews today cannot offer the Korban Pesach, some rabbis discouraged using a lamb bone to avoid confusion.
• A chicken neck bone or wing is often roasted and used instead.

---

Which One is Correct?

• Both are acceptable, depending on tradition:
• Lamb shank bone is more historically accurate.
• Chicken bone is a practical substitution, especially in Ashkenazi communities.
• Some people even use a vegetarian substitute, like a beet, to symbolize the sacrifice in modern times.

---

Summary

• Original Passover Meal (Moses’ Time): A lamb or goat was sacrificed and eaten.
• Post-Temple Seder (After 70 CE): A shank bone was added as a symbol of the lost sacrifice.
• Lamb vs. Chicken Bone:
• Lamb shank bone = Historically accurate, still widely used.
• Chicken bone = A practical Ashkenazi substitute, used in many homes.
• Vegetarian option (beet) = Some modern traditions adopt this.

So, while a chicken bone is sometimes used, it was never the original intent—it’s just a later adaptation. Would you like to know more about other Seder plate variations across Jewish traditions?

Me:
is not the chicken bone the most commonly used today

ChatGPT said:
No, the lamb shank bone (Zeroa) is still the most commonly used symbol on the Seder plate, especially in Sephardic, Mizrahi, and many Ashkenazi communities. However, chicken bones (such as a roasted neck or wing) are used as a substitute in some households, particularly among Ashkenazi Jews who may avoid lamb for various reasons.

Why Do Some Use a Chicken Bone?

1. Availability & Practicality – Lamb shank bones are not always easy to find, while chicken bones are more common.
2. Avoiding Confusion with the Passover Sacrifice – Some Ashkenazi traditions discourage using a lamb bone because Jews today cannot offer the actual Passover sacrifice without the Temple.
3. Cost & Convenience – A chicken bone is easier to obtain and prepare, especially in places where lamb is not widely eaten.

What’s Most Common?

• Lamb shank bone → Still the most widely used, as it directly represents the Passover sacrifice.
• Chicken bone (neck/wing) → A practical alternative, especially in some Ashkenazi traditions.
• Vegetarian substitute (beet) → Used by some vegetarians and certain progressive Jewish groups.

So while chicken bones are used, the lamb shank bone remains the most traditional and commonly used option worldwide. Would you like more details on different Passover customs across Jewish communities?

Me:
It doesn't make any sense that they could use a shank bone from a goat or lamb but not the meat of the lamb or goat they had to kill and butcher you go to lamb whichever they did

ChatGPT said:
You're absolutely right to question that! It does seem inconsistent that many Jewish communities avoid eating roast lamb on Passover but still use a lamb shank bone as a symbol. This practice comes from rabbinic rulings meant to prevent confusion between modern Seder meals and the actual Passover sacrifice (Korban Pesach) that was required when the Temple stood.

Why Do Many Jews Avoid Eating Roast Lamb on Passover?

1. No Temple = No Sacrifice
• Since the Temple was destroyed (70 CE), Jews can no longer bring the Korban Pesach (Passover sacrifice).
• To prevent people from thinking they are trying to replicate the sacrifice improperly, rabbis in some communities forbade eating roast lamb at the Seder.
2. Rabbinic Rulings (Talmud & Later Teachings)
• The Talmud (Pesachim 53a) records that in some Jewish communities, people refrained from eating roasted lamb at the Seder so it wouldn't appear as if they were offering an unauthorized sacrifice outside the Temple.
• Later, medieval rabbinic authorities (like Maimonides and the Shulchan Aruch) reinforced this practice, especially for Ashkenazi Jews.
3. Sephardic vs. Ashkenazi Customs
• Sephardic Jews (Middle Eastern, Spanish, North African traditions): Many do eat lamb or goat at the Seder, but often stewed or boiled, not roasted.
• Ashkenazi Jews (Eastern European traditions): Many have a custom of completely avoiding lamb to avoid any confusion with the ancient sacrifice.

---

Why Use a Lamb Shank Bone if You Can’t Eat Lamb?

• The shank bone (Zeroa) is only symbolic, not an actual meal component.
• It serves as a reminder of the lost sacrifice, without violating the rabbinic restriction on eating roasted lamb.
• Some communities roast the bone but do not eat it—they just place it on the Seder plate.

---

What About Goat?

• Goat was also an acceptable Passover sacrifice (Exodus 12:5).
• However, the same rabbinic concerns applied to roasting a whole goat.
• Today, most Jewish communities do not emphasize goat as part of Passover meals, even though it was a valid option in Temple times.

---

Summary

• Biblical Command (Exodus 12): Eat roasted lamb or goat.
• Post-Temple Practice (After 70 CE): No sacrifice allowed, so rabbis discouraged eating roast lamb to avoid confusion.
• Modern Seder Traditions:
• Shank bone remains as a symbol, but many Ashkenazi Jews avoid eating lamb or goat.
• Sephardic Jews may eat lamb, but often stewed or boiled instead of roasted.

So, the restriction is based on rabbinic interpretation rather than biblical law. Some Jews still eat lamb, but many avoid it due to centuries-old customs.

Would you like more information on how different Jewish communities handle Passover traditions?

 =================== ================= ============             

Exodus 12:14 (ESV)
“This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.

Now as a born-again Christian we no longer must keep the Passover feast. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. When we accept Christ as our savior and pick up our cross and follow him His blood is washed over us like the lamb's or Goat’s blood was put on the Mantel and the door post of the house.

We do celebrate the Passover at my house on or around Easter with either lamb or goat. We do stay close to what Moses commanded, not that we think we must. We do it just because we want to.

You can read more about the Passover meal in Exodus 12.

Side note: I believe the egg was added because of Pagan influences especially around that time of year. I have no proof of this, but it does seem logical.